Defensive line, what do we do to stop the run next year

[anselmheifer]

I think Allen is gone next season. We save $17 million by cutting him. And we would save 17 million by cutting Payne the following season. In two years, neither Allen, nor Payne will be on the roster. Allen at least is a culture fit, but he is worn down. Payne I just don't think is a culture fit. He looks like a guy that played super hard in one year to get that contract.

[PeterMP]

I think the average fan and the general stats probably under estimates our run defense.

We've played some very good run teams (Pittsburgh, the Eagles, the Bucs and Baltimore are some of the best rushing teams in the league, and teams like the Atlanta are good). Couple that with, ignoring Daniels, are running attack hasn't been very good. So if you are comparing our run defense compared to how the run defense of the team we are playing a lot of weeks we look bad.

But we also don't have anybody that is just great against the run.

Newton has been very good to good, especially considering he's a rookie 2nd round player. Allen, like Robinson, I felt like started strong, but then he got hurt and hasn't been very good since coming back. Payne I feel like is best at averages. The LBs are pretty sure tacklers, but not dynamic as play makers or getting off blocks. The DEs and safeties aren't even good.

The net effect is a defense that is averagish to good against the run that looks bad against good running teams and compared to how even an average defense does against our running backs.

Teams with very good run defenses often have a guy that is just a stud that can blow up the other teams rushing offense. We don't have that. Maybe with another Newton becomes that.

What evidence do you have that Jon Allen started strong before the injury? They weren't just getting gashed by good run teams, the Giants and most everyone else has gashed this team all season.

I'm not seeing what others are seeing in Johnny Newton so far. He had a good game against the Eagles but in most weeks he kind of disappears. The rando DL they picked up appear to be making just as many plays. He gives them no push on passing downs from the middle and he is not doing well against the run either.

The Giants games weren't good. But there have been games when they've held teams to under their average rushing yards, including the Bucs in week 1. We'll see if they can repeat that this week.

Allen has played less than 1/2 the snaps than Payne.

If you take Allen's QB hits and double them, that gives him more QB hits than any of our other DL and tied for the team lead. And puts him in the top 70 in the NFL of all defensive players. If you take his tackles for a loss and double them that gives him as many tackles for a loss of any our other DTs. His missed tackle rate is 1/2 of Payne's and even lower than some other people that are considered very good DTs.

With respect to Newton, that's also what people see. A low missed tackle rate and a reasonable number of tackles for a loss (leads our DTs despite having few snaps than Payne.). And he's a rookie.

[PeterMP]

Payne has negative value given his contract. You'd essentially have to pay somebody to take Payne.

Next year, Allen will be in the last year of his contract and is coming off a pretty big injury and will still be paid a lot. Again, nobody will want him. You are to the point where cutting Allen becomes reasonable and likely. They might not need the space so they might not, but that would be your option with Allen.

Payne you just live with for at least another year.

[@DCGoldPants]

There are stats and PFF ranking stuff, which are overused by sportstalk hosts to justify their hot takes, and then there is the intangible clutch moment production from players that we see from say.....Daniels when he does something huge in a huge moment.

What we need is to look at these guys as run stoppers when they need to make a play to get the ball back for the offense, or just simply win the game. That's where the DL and our DBs (in pass coverage)have been woeful this year. Thankfully other teams have given the ball back to Daniels with enough time on the clock to win it back in many instances.

So, for Payne or Allen or whoever, where are those moments when we say "Man, when it's on the line, he stood the guy on on 3rd and short" instead of "the running was already 2 yards past them when Luvu and Wagner made the stop"?

[Darrell Green Fan]

Truth is, that we don't have a ton of talent there. We see improved coaching impacting all over the place, but the DL has not been good. I know Allen missed a lot of time and was ok last game. Payne is just a guy this year, blocked and the RB gets right by him.

So, "What do we do to stop the run next year?" is probably using the draft and FA with tons of space to upgrade with guys who can fix what Quinn/Whitt are trying to do. Newton has flashed, BTW.

I do agree that they had to play soft to cover for their corners. But that does not explain the lack of penatration on passing downs. They never seem to be making plays and we can't blame it all on the scheme although that clearly play a role. Better corners and we should see a big improvement. But do we really want players that we have to stack the box in order for them to be productive?

[the burgundy & gold]

Is anyone else very surprised with the drop off from both Payne and Allen? They're both not old and really don't have a huge injury history, Jon a little more than Payne but still nothing crazy. Seems like both of them occurred directly after the contract extensions, which isn't terribly surprising for pro athletes, but the drop off has been more significant than one would expect.

I remember in the Rivera era, there was some grumbling about the technique the coaches required from the d-linemen and there was that one off-season where they fired the DL coach very unexpectedly, but Payne and Allen both performed better in those years than they are in the first year of the new regime. I would be curious to have one of the tape breakdown experts give some insight on the scheme/technique required in the Joe Whitt/DQ defense.

It's also crazy to look at Payne's career sack numbers, has to be one of the most extreme cases of showing out for a contract year. Obviously I understand Sacks aren't the end all be all for his position, but the year he was due to get paid, he sure played like they were. Hard to not read into that at least a little bit.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I think the average fan and the general stats probably under estimates our run defense.

We've played some very good run teams (Pittsburgh, the Eagles, the Bucs and Baltimore are some of the best rushing teams in the league, and teams like the Atlanta are good). Couple that with, ignoring Daniels, are running attack hasn't been very good. So if you are comparing our run defense compared to how the run defense of the team we are playing a lot of weeks we look bad.

But we also don't have anybody that is just great against the run.

Newton has been very good to good, especially considering he's a rookie 2nd round player. Allen, like Robinson, I felt like started strong, but then he got hurt and hasn't been very good since coming back. Payne I feel like is best at averages. The LBs are pretty sure tacklers, but not dynamic as play makers or getting off blocks. The DEs and safeties aren't even good.

The net effect is a defense that is averagish to good against the run that looks bad against good running teams and compared to how even an average defense does against our running backs.

Teams with very good run defenses often have a guy that is just a stud that can blow up the other teams rushing offense. We don't have that. Maybe with another Newton becomes that.

What evidence do you have that Jon Allen started strong before the injury? They weren't just getting gashed by good run teams, the Giants and most everyone else has gashed this team all season.

I'm not seeing what others are seeing in Johnny Newton so far. He had a good game against the Eagles but in most weeks he kind of disappears. The rando DL they picked up appear to be making just as many plays. He gives them no push on passing downs from the middle and he is not doing well against the run either.

The Giants games weren't good. But there have been games when they've held teams to under their average rushing yards, including the Bucs in week 1. We'll see if they can repeat that this week.

Allen has played less than 1/2 the snaps than Payne.

If you take Allen's QB hits and double them, that gives him more QB hits than any of our other DL and tied for the team lead. And puts him in the top 70 in the NFL of all defensive players. If you take his tackles for a loss and double them that gives him as many tackles for a loss of any our other DTs. His missed tackle rate is 1/2 of Payne's and even lower than some other people that are considered very good DTs.

With respect to Newton, that's also what people see. A low missed tackle rate and a reasonable number of tackles for a loss (leads our DTs despite having few snaps than Payne.). And he's a rookie.

I'm not sure being better than the other DTs, if that's really the case, is much to hang your hat on. Allen was healthy at the start of the season. We hardly ever heard his name called as teams ran at will right up the gut on us. He just hasn't had much of an impact for 2 seasons now. At least Payne flashes at times, Allen has been mostly invisible.

Same with Newton. I've read the advanced stats, they don't match the eye test. I watch him a lot of passing downs and he is contantly stood up at the LOS. he may have a reasonable tackle for loss figure, and I understand he's a rookie who has missed time, but he also is invisible far too much for me.

[brandies]

[anselmheifer]

Anybody with thoughts on solutions? Who to sign, draft, or trade for?

[CarolinaB&G]

I don't think trading Payne or Allen is the answer. For one thing, we'd get really poor value. At best we get like what a 5th rounder for them? Not worth it. We'd just be creating another hole that we have to fill.

They don't need to get great value. A players value is nothing more than what you can get from him. At any rate, the real value is the salary savings and the fact that you can get better performing players for the money you save. Where is the negative?